Discussion:
cola nut sees a "mass migration" to Linux
(too old to reply)
Moshe Goldfarb
2008-03-22 15:53:17 UTC
Permalink
thad05 finds it "interesting that success for MS has now essentially been
redefined from 'crushing Linux' to 'holding off the mass migration'."
Wake me when it's over.
Every year is the year of Linux.
FWIW I've been hearing this same story for 10 or more years and it still
hasn't happened.
In fact like a rocket with no fuel, it still hasn't even gotten off the
ground.

Linux is sitting at 0.6 percent of the desktop market or so.
Even the BBC has it at 0.8 percent, I suspect that is high BTW.

You'll be sleeping a long, long time at the rate Linux is going nowhere.
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Moshe Goldfarb
2008-03-22 15:56:43 UTC
Permalink
And *this* IMO is the biggest problem with most of these advocates.
They keep telling the "retards, scum and mindless sheep" (their
future userbase) how Windows will BSOD every half-hour and how they
need to reinstall Windows every month for it to run well.
They always ignore things like these 62 pages of discussion of Linux
freezing up
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=587905&highlight=freeze
There is virtually nobody who actually has these imaginary problems
so if the "benefit" of switching to linux is no more BSOD's and no
more having to reinstall Windows every month then most people don't
need that benefit. They aren't having this problem so what exactly is
the point of dropping everything and starting from scratch with linux?
1) *interminable* hassles trying to use and administer Linux
2) greatly reduced choice in the number and quality of apps
3) no native games worth playing for more than a few minutes
4) trying the Wine hack
5) reduced choices in hardware
Linux: it really is a no-brainer
The average user is simply not interested in the Linux experience.
They download Ubuntu or whatever, try it and dump it.
It happens all the time.
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
dick blisters
2008-03-22 19:06:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
And *this* IMO is the biggest problem with most of these advocates.
They keep telling the "retards, scum and mindless sheep" (their
future userbase) how Windows will BSOD every half-hour and how they
need to reinstall Windows every month for it to run well.
They always ignore things like these 62 pages of discussion of Linux
freezing up
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=587905&highlight=freeze
There is virtually nobody who actually has these imaginary problems
so if the "benefit" of switching to linux is no more BSOD's and no
more having to reinstall Windows every month then most people don't
need that benefit. They aren't having this problem so what exactly is
the point of dropping everything and starting from scratch with linux?
1) *interminable* hassles trying to use and administer Linux
2) greatly reduced choice in the number and quality of apps
3) no native games worth playing for more than a few minutes
4) trying the Wine hack
5) reduced choices in hardware
Linux: it really is a no-brainer
The average user is simply not interested in the Linux experience.
They download Ubuntu or whatever, try it and dump it.
It happens all the time.
I bet most don't even install it. People are just lazey and want it all
done for them. They'll stick with something familiar.
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Moshe Goldfarb
2008-03-22 19:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by dick blisters
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
And *this* IMO is the biggest problem with most of these advocates.
They keep telling the "retards, scum and mindless sheep" (their
future userbase) how Windows will BSOD every half-hour and how they
need to reinstall Windows every month for it to run well.
They always ignore things like these 62 pages of discussion of Linux
freezing up
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=587905&highlight=freeze
There is virtually nobody who actually has these imaginary problems
so if the "benefit" of switching to linux is no more BSOD's and no
more having to reinstall Windows every month then most people don't
need that benefit. They aren't having this problem so what exactly is
the point of dropping everything and starting from scratch with linux?
1) *interminable* hassles trying to use and administer Linux
2) greatly reduced choice in the number and quality of apps
3) no native games worth playing for more than a few minutes
4) trying the Wine hack
5) reduced choices in hardware
Linux: it really is a no-brainer
The average user is simply not interested in the Linux experience.
They download Ubuntu or whatever, try it and dump it.
It happens all the time.
I bet most don't even install it. People are just lazey and want it all
done for them. They'll stick with something familiar.
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Probably.
Most of these Linux distributions come as Live CDs and after the user tries
a couple and *expereinces Linux* it's doubtful they will actually install
the thing.
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
e***@yahoo.com
2008-03-22 19:58:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
And *this* IMO is the biggest problem with most of these advocates.
They keep telling the "retards, scum and mindless sheep"  (their
future userbase) how Windows will BSOD every half-hour and how they
need to reinstall Windows every month for it to run well.
They always ignore things like these 62 pages of discussion of Linux
freezing up
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=587905&highlight=freeze
There is virtually nobody who actually has these imaginary problems
so if the "benefit" of switching to linux is no more BSOD's and no
more having to reinstall Windows every month then most people don't
need that benefit. They aren't having this problem so what exactly is
the point of dropping everything and starting from scratch with linux?
1)  *interminable* hassles trying to use and administer Linux
2) greatly reduced choice in the number and quality of apps
3) no native games worth playing for more than a few minutes
4) trying the Wine hack
5) reduced choices in hardware
Linux: it really is a no-brainer
The average user is simply not interested in the Linux experience.
They download Ubuntu or whatever, try it and dump it.
It happens all the time.
I bet most don't even install it. People  are just lazey and want it all
done for them. They'll stick with something familiar.
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Probably.
Most of these Linux distributions come as Live CDs and after the user tries
a couple and *expereinces Linux* it's doubtful they will actually install
the thing.
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'll try anything to avoid Indian helpdesks
Moshe Goldfarb
2008-03-22 20:00:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
And *this* IMO is the biggest problem with most of these advocates.
They keep telling the "retards, scum and mindless sheep"  (their
future userbase) how Windows will BSOD every half-hour and how they
need to reinstall Windows every month for it to run well.
They always ignore things like these 62 pages of discussion of Linux
freezing up
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=587905&highlight=freeze
There is virtually nobody who actually has these imaginary problems
so if the "benefit" of switching to linux is no more BSOD's and no
more having to reinstall Windows every month then most people don't
need that benefit. They aren't having this problem so what exactly is
the point of dropping everything and starting from scratch with linux?
1)  *interminable* hassles trying to use and administer Linux
2) greatly reduced choice in the number and quality of apps
3) no native games worth playing for more than a few minutes
4) trying the Wine hack
5) reduced choices in hardware
Linux: it really is a no-brainer
The average user is simply not interested in the Linux experience.
They download Ubuntu or whatever, try it and dump it.
It happens all the time.
I bet most don't even install it. People  are just lazey and want it all
done for them. They'll stick with something familiar.
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Probably.
Most of these Linux distributions come as Live CDs and after the user tries
a couple and *expereinces Linux* it's doubtful they will actually install
the thing.
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'll try anything to avoid Indian helpdesks
Haha...!
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
t***@tux.glaci.delete-this.com
2008-03-22 22:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
Every year is the year of Linux.
FWIW I've been hearing this same story for 10 or more years and it still
hasn't happened.
In fact like a rocket with no fuel, it still hasn't even gotten off the
ground.
Yup, you are right... every year IS the year of Linux. Every
year, Linux improves and adds more users. That is just the way
it works. It doesn't have to happen all at once to happen.

Riddle me this: What exact year was The Year of The Internet?
Ask 10 different people and you will probably get 10 different
answers if even all 10 have an answer. There was a point at
which less than 1 percent of computer users had Internet
access and growth look equally small... and yet look at where
we are now.
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
Linux is sitting at 0.6 percent of the desktop market or so.
Even the BBC has it at 0.8 percent, I suspect that is high BTW.
You'll be sleeping a long, long time at the rate Linux is going nowhere.
There's that 'going nowhere' spin again, even though the evidence
undeniably says otherwise.

Thad
--
Yeah, I drank the Open Source cool-aid... Unlike the other brand, it had
all the ingredients on the label.
Dr.Hal0nf1r£$
2008-03-23 14:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@tux.glaci.delete-this.com
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
Every year is the year of Linux.
FWIW I've been hearing this same story for 10 or more years and it
still hasn't happened.
In fact like a rocket with no fuel, it still hasn't even gotten off
the ground.
Yup, you are right... every year IS the year of Linux. Every
year, Linux improves and adds more users. That is just the way
it works. It doesn't have to happen all at once to happen.
Riddle me this: What exact year was The Year of The Internet?
Ask 10 different people and you will probably get 10 different
answers if even all 10 have an answer. There was a point at
which less than 1 percent of computer users had Internet
access and growth look equally small... and yet look at where
we are now.
'Thing is that the growth in internet usage was born from a nescessity;
whereas Linux usage is born from a dysfunction.

How fast did the growth in internet users occur? Rapidly; and I would
estimate at least 90% of computers in developed countries are internet
connected while the number of computers in use increases by thousands
daily - Yet still Linux only accounts for less than 1% of the desktop
market.
--
http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk
- Personalised Desktop Computers.
t***@tux.glaci.delete-this.com
2008-03-24 23:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Hal0nf1r£$
'Thing is that the growth in internet usage was born from a nescessity;
whereas Linux usage is born from a dysfunction.
Early Internet adoption did not occurr out of necessity, it usually
happened because it was a more efficient way of doing things. That
is typically the way of all technology. It only becomes a 'necessity'
as it approaches saturation.
Post by Dr.Hal0nf1r£$
How fast did the growth in internet users occur? Rapidly; and I would
estimate at least 90% of computers in developed countries are internet
connected while the number of computers in use increases by thousands
daily - Yet still Linux only accounts for less than 1% of the desktop
market.
I was there for the early stages of the Internet. Growth was
slow for quite a few years before it really took off. Those of
us in the middle of it had no doubt it would be huge, but it
did take time to build momentum before the rest of the world
noticed it.

Thad
--
Yeah, I drank the Open Source cool-aid... Unlike the other brand, it had
all the ingredients on the label.
Linonut
2008-03-25 12:09:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@tux.glaci.delete-this.com
Post by Dr.Hal0nf1r£$
'Thing is that the growth in internet usage was born from a nescessity;
whereas Linux usage is born from a dysfunction.
No, Good Doctor. It was born "Just for Fun".

And GNU was born so that one man (later many many more) was not subject
to the whims of his vendors.
Post by t***@tux.glaci.delete-this.com
Early Internet adoption did not occurr out of necessity, it usually
happened because it was a more efficient way of doing things. That
is typically the way of all technology. It only becomes a 'necessity'
as it approaches saturation.
Post by Dr.Hal0nf1r£$
How fast did the growth in internet users occur? Rapidly; and I would
estimate at least 90% of computers in developed countries are internet
connected while the number of computers in use increases by thousands
daily - Yet still Linux only accounts for less than 1% of the desktop
market.
The Good Doctor means "apparent desktop browsing at certain classes of
web sites".
Post by t***@tux.glaci.delete-this.com
I was there for the early stages of the Internet. Growth was
slow for quite a few years before it really took off. Those of
us in the middle of it had no doubt it would be huge, but it
did take time to build momentum before the rest of the world
noticed it.
And, of course, although the Good Doctor may think otherwise, usage of
the Internet (and of Microsoft products) is only a small part of
computer usage. Plenty of usage occurs on internal networks, or using
protocols not involved with HTTP. For example, NTP, FTP, and various
forms of peer-to-peer.

As big as Microsoft is, it represents only about 10-15% of the total
computer-related activity in the world.
--
I'm a big believer that as much as possible, and there's obviously political
limitations, freedom of migration is a good thing. -- Bill Gates, "Bill Gates
backs immigration reform on Mexico trip" Reuters (21 March 2007)
Dr.Hal0nf1r£$
2008-03-25 15:20:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by t***@tux.glaci.delete-this.com
Post by Dr.Hal0nf1r£$
'Thing is that the growth in internet usage was born from a
nescessity; whereas Linux usage is born from a dysfunction.
No, Good Doctor. It was born "Just for Fun".
And GNU was born so that one man (later many many more) was not
subject to the whims of his vendors.
Post by t***@tux.glaci.delete-this.com
Early Internet adoption did not occurr out of necessity, it usually
happened because it was a more efficient way of doing things. That
is typically the way of all technology. It only becomes a
'necessity' as it approaches saturation.
Post by Dr.Hal0nf1r£$
How fast did the growth in internet users occur? Rapidly; and I
would estimate at least 90% of computers in developed countries are
internet connected while the number of computers in use increases
by thousands daily - Yet still Linux only accounts for less than 1%
of the desktop market.
The Good Doctor means "apparent desktop browsing at certain classes of
web sites".
Post by t***@tux.glaci.delete-this.com
I was there for the early stages of the Internet. Growth was
slow for quite a few years before it really took off. Those of
us in the middle of it had no doubt it would be huge, but it
did take time to build momentum before the rest of the world
noticed it.
And, of course, although the Good Doctor may think otherwise, usage of
the Internet (and of Microsoft products) is only a small part of
computer usage. Plenty of usage occurs on internal networks, or using
protocols not involved with HTTP. For example, NTP, FTP, and various
forms of peer-to-peer.
As big as Microsoft is, it represents only about 10-15% of the total
computer-related activity in the world.
Undeniably usage of the internet is only a percentage of computer usage;
however I doubt it's as low as 15% despite the various networks As well as
the numerous protocols in use - Most of which can be and are used over the
internet.

As far as Microsoft is concerned; they would appear to have one of the
largest market shares in the computer industry; whereas Linux, being more of
a cult than a serious player, lags sadly behind in the personal computing
arena. Admittedly the usage of Linux operating system variations in devices
with embedded processors such as mobile phones, vending machines, etc, is
fairly high: When I want my computer to telephone my friends and serve
drinks I'll look for a Linux o/s provided it doesn't require me to get a
doctorate and a degree in computing science. (I have no actual real
doctorate despite my nick; which is an anagram of my name.)
--
http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk
- Personalised Desktop Computers.
k***@discussions.microsoft.com
2008-03-24 04:09:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
thad05 finds it "interesting that success for MS has now essentially been
redefined from 'crushing Linux' to 'holding off the mass migration'."
Wake me when it's over.
Every year is the year of Linux.
FWIW I've been hearing this same story for 10 or more years and it still
hasn't happened.
In fact like a rocket with no fuel, it still hasn't even gotten off the
ground.
Linux is sitting at 0.6 percent of the desktop market or so.
Even the BBC has it at 0.8 percent, I suspect that is high BTW.
You'll be sleeping a long, long time at the rate Linux is going nowhere.
Of Course There Will Be A Mass Migration 2 Linux, With Microsoft Windows
7.0 Not Coming Out Until 2010, And With Mainstream Support 4 Windows XP
Home Users Getting Cut Off On April 14th, 2009, Home Users Will Either
Have 2 Upgrade 2 Windows Vista Service Pack One, Or Convert Over 2 Open
Source Linux, I Suspect They Will Choose The Latter, Just FYI.
AqD
2008-03-25 02:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
thad05 finds it "interesting that success for MS has now essentially been
redefined from 'crushing Linux' to 'holding off the mass migration'."
Wake me when it's over.
Every year is the year of Linux.
FWIW I've been hearing this same story for 10 or more years and it still
hasn't happened.
In fact like a rocket with no fuel, it still hasn't even gotten off the
ground.
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez ;)),
it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People are
claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're mostly
fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic applications
and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides but hacky editors
which take months to learn!)

Besides, you can get all of the free softwares on windows as well,
such as openoffice, apache, mplayer (save you a lot of WMP trouble!),
firefox, etc. Since windows is usually pre-installed, it just
wouldn't save you any cent to use linux.
Linonut
2008-03-25 12:17:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez ;)),
it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People are
claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're mostly
fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic applications
and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides but hacky editors
which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse? KDevelop? Even Anjuta?
Post by AqD
Besides, you can get all of the free softwares on windows as well,
such as openoffice, apache, mplayer (save you a lot of WMP trouble!),
firefox, etc. Since windows is usually pre-installed, it just
wouldn't save you any cent to use linux.
Well, most people seem quite willing to put up with malware and with
being nickel-and-dimed to death to fight malware and to be able to do
stuff (office, pix, audio/video) with their Windows computers.

Personally, I greatly prefer Linux because you can try stuff out without
making much of an investment (in time /or/ money). Another reason I
prefer Linux is I can avoid many problems and hassles that occur to the
Windows users on our networks. I can install various forms of Linux on
as many systems as I want to, and can bring old hardware back into
service, even if only as a terminal for a Windows system.

I can totally change the GUI and find the style of interface I like
best. Currently, that is the fluxbox/openbox style of GUI. No desktop
icons, no frickin' Start button. I like it.

You may not like it, though, and that's cool. Heck, my wife and
daughter still prefer Windows, even though their desktops have more
corporate logos on them than Jeff Gordon's jumpsuit.
--
Reinvent yourself!
-- Bill Gates
AqD
2008-03-25 16:34:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez ;)),
it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People are
claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're mostly
fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic applications
and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides but hacky editors
which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse works fine on windows. KDevelop and Anjuta are no better than
an editor with project organizer and debugger. Most of good IDEs are
cross-platform, but windows just gives you more choices.
Hadron
2008-03-25 16:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez ;)),
it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People are
claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're mostly
fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic applications
and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides but hacky editors
which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse works fine on windows. KDevelop and Anjuta are no better than
an editor with project organizer and debugger. Most of good IDEs are
cross-platform, but windows just gives you more choices.
Seconded. Eclipse is eons above KDevelop and Anjuta - both are half
arsed glorified editors with too much politcal agenda. I mean ffs,if
you're a gnome programmer using KDevelop is almost certainly NOT
something you want to use - it uses the KDE toolkits and its UI is
totally at odds with what the Gnome guys are trying to
achieve. Ridiculous fragmentation once more. Unfortunately the Linux
eclipse suffers from one problem (apart from being another overweight
resource hungry java pile of bloatware) - most Debian/Ubuntu installations I
have dealt with have a hosed Java from the standard repositories and
people need to manually install the Sun JRE/JDK.
--
<Overfiend> partycle: I seriously do need a vacation from this
package. I actually had a DREAM about introducing a
stupid new bug into xbase-preinst last night. That's a
Bad Sign.
-- Seen on #Debian shortly before the release of Debian 2.0
Stephan Rose
2008-03-25 21:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hadron
Post by AqD
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez ;)),
it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People are
claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're mostly
fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic applications
and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides but hacky
editors which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse works fine on windows. KDevelop and Anjuta are no better than
an editor with project organizer and debugger. Most of good IDEs are
cross-platform, but windows just gives you more choices.
Seconded. Eclipse is eons above KDevelop and Anjuta - both are half
arsed glorified editors with too much politcal agenda. I mean ffs,if
you're a gnome programmer using KDevelop is almost certainly NOT
something you want to use - it uses the KDE toolkits and its UI is
totally at odds with what the Gnome guys are trying to achieve.
Ridiculous fragmentation once more. Unfortunately the Linux eclipse
suffers from one problem (apart from being another overweight resource
hungry java pile of bloatware) - most Debian/Ubuntu installations I have
dealt with have a hosed Java from the standard repositories and people
need to manually install the Sun JRE/JDK.
Well I agree with your first half, eclipse is eons ahead of KDevelop and
Anjuta and I'd rather not try to develop just about anything in KDevelop.
And I actually have a commercial Qt license....

Now, the last part about Java is just complete BS.

Installing the proper Java under Ubuntu is roughly as difficult as this:

apt-get install sun-java6-jre sun-java6-plugin

Done.

Or you can just choose it from synaptic if you prefer.

See Hadron, that isn't that difficult now is it?
--
Stephan
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT

君の事思い出す日なんてないのは
君の事忘れたときがないから
AqD
2008-03-26 01:30:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Rose
Post by Hadron
Post by AqD
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez ;)),
it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People are
claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're mostly
fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic applications
and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides but hacky
editors which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse works fine on windows. KDevelop and Anjuta are no better than
an editor with project organizer and debugger. Most of good IDEs are
cross-platform, but windows just gives you more choices.
Seconded. Eclipse is eons above KDevelop and Anjuta - both are half
arsed glorified editors with too much politcal agenda. I mean ffs,if
you're a gnome programmer using KDevelop is almost certainly NOT
something you want to use - it uses the KDE toolkits and its UI is
totally at odds with what the Gnome guys are trying to achieve.
Ridiculous fragmentation once more. Unfortunately the Linux eclipse
suffers from one problem (apart from being another overweight resource
hungry java pile of bloatware) - most Debian/Ubuntu installations I have
dealt with have a hosed Java from the standard repositories and people
need to manually install the Sun JRE/JDK.
Well I agree with your first half, eclipse is eons ahead of KDevelop and
Anjuta and I'd rather not try to develop just about anything in KDevelop.
And I actually have a commercial Qt license....
Now, the last part about Java is just complete BS.
apt-get install sun-java6-jre sun-java6-plugin
Done.
Or you can just choose it from synaptic if you prefer.
See Hadron, that isn't that difficult now is it?
you assume everyone are using ubuntu....
Moshe Goldfarb
2008-03-26 01:33:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
you assume everyone are using ubuntu....
Aren't they?
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
The Ghost In The Machine
2008-03-26 14:01:25 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Moshe Goldfarb
<***@gmail.com>
wrote
on Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:33:41 -0400
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
Post by AqD
you assume everyone are using ubuntu....
Aren't they?
Well, no. Everyone's using Microsoft Windows Vista.
That's why Microsoft decided to extend the XP sunset provision
until sometime this summer....
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
Useless C++ Programming Idea #992398129:
void f(unsigned u) { if(u < 0) ... }
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Stephan Rose
2008-03-26 01:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
Post by Stephan Rose
Post by Hadron
Post by AqD
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and
using linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money
(warez ;)), it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all.
People are claiming they can do this and that on linux, but
they're mostly fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the
basic applications and development tools! (and that tools are NOT
ides but hacky editors which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse works fine on windows. KDevelop and Anjuta are no better
than an editor with project organizer and debugger. Most of good
IDEs are cross-platform, but windows just gives you more choices.
Seconded. Eclipse is eons above KDevelop and Anjuta - both are half
arsed glorified editors with too much politcal agenda. I mean ffs,if
you're a gnome programmer using KDevelop is almost certainly NOT
something you want to use - it uses the KDE toolkits and its UI is
totally at odds with what the Gnome guys are trying to achieve.
Ridiculous fragmentation once more. Unfortunately the Linux eclipse
suffers from one problem (apart from being another overweight
resource hungry java pile of bloatware) - most Debian/Ubuntu
installations I have dealt with have a hosed Java from the standard
repositories and people need to manually install the Sun JRE/JDK.
Well I agree with your first half, eclipse is eons ahead of KDevelop
and Anjuta and I'd rather not try to develop just about anything in
KDevelop. And I actually have a commercial Qt license....
Now, the last part about Java is just complete BS.
apt-get install sun-java6-jre sun-java6-plugin
Done.
Or you can just choose it from synaptic if you prefer.
See Hadron, that isn't that difficult now is it?
you assume everyone are using ubuntu....
Which is a perfectly fine assumption to make in response to "most Debian/
Ubuntu installations......"
--
Stephan
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT

君の事思い出す日なんてないのは
君の事忘れたときがないから
Moshe Goldfarb
2008-03-26 02:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Rose
Post by AqD
Post by Stephan Rose
Post by Hadron
Post by AqD
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and
using linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money
(warez ;)), it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all.
People are claiming they can do this and that on linux, but
they're mostly fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the
basic applications and development tools! (and that tools are NOT
ides but hacky editors which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse works fine on windows. KDevelop and Anjuta are no better
than an editor with project organizer and debugger. Most of good
IDEs are cross-platform, but windows just gives you more choices.
Seconded. Eclipse is eons above KDevelop and Anjuta - both are half
arsed glorified editors with too much politcal agenda. I mean ffs,if
you're a gnome programmer using KDevelop is almost certainly NOT
something you want to use - it uses the KDE toolkits and its UI is
totally at odds with what the Gnome guys are trying to achieve.
Ridiculous fragmentation once more. Unfortunately the Linux eclipse
suffers from one problem (apart from being another overweight
resource hungry java pile of bloatware) - most Debian/Ubuntu
installations I have dealt with have a hosed Java from the standard
repositories and people need to manually install the Sun JRE/JDK.
Well I agree with your first half, eclipse is eons ahead of KDevelop
and Anjuta and I'd rather not try to develop just about anything in
KDevelop. And I actually have a commercial Qt license....
Now, the last part about Java is just complete BS.
apt-get install sun-java6-jre sun-java6-plugin
Done.
Or you can just choose it from synaptic if you prefer.
See Hadron, that isn't that difficult now is it?
you assume everyone are using ubuntu....
Which is a perfectly fine assumption to make in response to "most Debian/
Ubuntu installations......"
I was being a wee bit sarcastic :)

IOW I understand your point although it proves what a support nightmare
Linux is due to the myriad of different distributions, package managers
etc.
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Stephan Rose
2008-03-26 02:58:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moshe Goldfarb
Post by Stephan Rose
Post by AqD
Post by Stephan Rose
Post by Hadron
Post by AqD
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and
using linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money
(warez ;)), it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at
all. People are claiming they can do this and that on linux,
but they're mostly fraking geeks who never touch anything
beyond the basic applications and development tools! (and that
tools are NOT ides but hacky editors which take months to
learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse works fine on windows. KDevelop and Anjuta are no better
than an editor with project organizer and debugger. Most of good
IDEs are cross-platform, but windows just gives you more choices.
Seconded. Eclipse is eons above KDevelop and Anjuta - both are half
arsed glorified editors with too much politcal agenda. I mean
ffs,if you're a gnome programmer using KDevelop is almost certainly
NOT something you want to use - it uses the KDE toolkits and its UI
is totally at odds with what the Gnome guys are trying to achieve.
Ridiculous fragmentation once more. Unfortunately the Linux eclipse
suffers from one problem (apart from being another overweight
resource hungry java pile of bloatware) - most Debian/Ubuntu
installations I have dealt with have a hosed Java from the standard
repositories and people need to manually install the Sun JRE/JDK.
Well I agree with your first half, eclipse is eons ahead of KDevelop
and Anjuta and I'd rather not try to develop just about anything in
KDevelop. And I actually have a commercial Qt license....
Now, the last part about Java is just complete BS.
apt-get install sun-java6-jre sun-java6-plugin
Done.
Or you can just choose it from synaptic if you prefer.
See Hadron, that isn't that difficult now is it?
you assume everyone are using ubuntu....
Which is a perfectly fine assumption to make in response to "most
Debian/ Ubuntu installations......"
I was being a wee bit sarcastic :)
IOW I understand your point although it proves what a support nightmare
Linux is due to the myriad of different distributions, package managers
etc.
Depends really...

I've had my share of support nightmares under windows as well.

I've found the easiest solution to be to use 3rd party non-vendor related
cross platform APIs such as Qt. Qt is nice, I enjoy using it.

Using it allows me to target both windows and linux easily and also
eliminates the issues between different linux distributions as it is not
tied to any specific API.

So mainly my linux dependencies look roughly like this:

- stdlib, can't get around that one on any OS really.

- X, which isn't an issue. It's kind of a given that if someone is going
to run a GUI app that X server along with the necessary libraries will be
present.

- OpenGL (for one of my apps), again not an issue as I can safely assume
that if someone wants to run a CAD package that they'll have OpenGL.
OpenGL is one of the system requirements for my app.

- jpg/tiff/png, etc. (though those I could static link if I wanted)

- Couple other assorted low-level system libraries that are always going
to be around

I am however *never* dependent on libraries such as GTK, KDE, etc. It's
with dependencies like that where a lot of nightmares can come up.

No matter what desktop environment someone runs, my apps will work
because it has no dependency to any of them.

Not even Qt is a dependency because I can just static link it.

And under windows, the same applies. My apps will work ranging from win95
to Vista as long as I don't do anything non-portable, which basically
means not making any calls that aren't part of my cross platform library.

Believe me, there can be plenty support nightmare just in Redmond's
little world too trying to support multiple versions of Windows.

Bottom line, a lot can be done on the developers side without any
additional effort to reduce those kinds of problems. Just have to do it
right from the start, it's not the kind of thing you can do as an
afterthought a year into development. Then you do have a nightmare on
your hands...
--
Stephan
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT

君の事思い出す日なんてないのは
君の事忘れたときがないから
Hadron
2008-03-26 06:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Rose
Post by Hadron
Post by AqD
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez ;)),
it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People are
claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're mostly
fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic applications
and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides but hacky
editors which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse works fine on windows. KDevelop and Anjuta are no better than
an editor with project organizer and debugger. Most of good IDEs are
cross-platform, but windows just gives you more choices.
Seconded. Eclipse is eons above KDevelop and Anjuta - both are half
arsed glorified editors with too much politcal agenda. I mean ffs,if
you're a gnome programmer using KDevelop is almost certainly NOT
something you want to use - it uses the KDE toolkits and its UI is
totally at odds with what the Gnome guys are trying to achieve.
Ridiculous fragmentation once more. Unfortunately the Linux eclipse
suffers from one problem (apart from being another overweight resource
hungry java pile of bloatware) - most Debian/Ubuntu installations I have
dealt with have a hosed Java from the standard repositories and people
need to manually install the Sun JRE/JDK.
Well I agree with your first half, eclipse is eons ahead of KDevelop and
Anjuta and I'd rather not try to develop just about anything in KDevelop.
And I actually have a commercial Qt license....
Now, the last part about Java is just complete BS.
apt-get install sun-java6-jre sun-java6-plugin
Done.
Or you can just choose it from synaptic if you prefer.
See Hadron, that isn't that difficult now is it?
If it works Stephen. Why do you think I would make this up.

Now, I will grant you that my experiences were more Debian orientated
but rather than us do the usual cat fight I will take your word for it
that it "just works" in Ubuntu. I wont even bother going to google to
try to prove you wrong.
--
The "XP could sink Microsoft" thread his an absolute gem. You'd think
comp.os.linux.advocacy - where they put the lunacy in advocacy
these advocates were related to Nostradamus!
Stephan Rose
2008-03-26 12:42:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hadron
Post by Stephan Rose
Post by Hadron
Post by AqD
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez
;)), it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People
are claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're
mostly fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic
applications and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides
but hacky editors which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse works fine on windows. KDevelop and Anjuta are no better than
an editor with project organizer and debugger. Most of good IDEs are
cross-platform, but windows just gives you more choices.
Seconded. Eclipse is eons above KDevelop and Anjuta - both are half
arsed glorified editors with too much politcal agenda. I mean ffs,if
you're a gnome programmer using KDevelop is almost certainly NOT
something you want to use - it uses the KDE toolkits and its UI is
totally at odds with what the Gnome guys are trying to achieve.
Ridiculous fragmentation once more. Unfortunately the Linux eclipse
suffers from one problem (apart from being another overweight resource
hungry java pile of bloatware) - most Debian/Ubuntu installations I
have dealt with have a hosed Java from the standard repositories and
people need to manually install the Sun JRE/JDK.
Well I agree with your first half, eclipse is eons ahead of KDevelop
and Anjuta and I'd rather not try to develop just about anything in
KDevelop. And I actually have a commercial Qt license....
Now, the last part about Java is just complete BS.
apt-get install sun-java6-jre sun-java6-plugin
Done.
Or you can just choose it from synaptic if you prefer.
See Hadron, that isn't that difficult now is it?
If it works Stephen. Why do you think I would make this up.
Now, I will grant you that my experiences were more Debian orientated
but rather than us do the usual cat fight I will take your word for it
that it "just works" in Ubuntu. I wont even bother going to google to
try to prove you wrong.
Go google it. "Prove me wrong"....I only frigging did it yesterday on a
brand new install and Eclipse is running flawlessly....

It's part of my setup script I've run on over a dozen of installations
now and it's worked every time.

But please, go prove me wrong with a google link and I suppose I'll just
take all my personal experience and throw it out the window over your
superior googling wisdom.
--
Stephan
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT

君の事思い出す日なんてないのは
君の事忘れたときがないから
Hadron
2008-03-26 16:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Rose
Post by Hadron
Post by Stephan Rose
Post by Hadron
Post by AqD
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez
;)), it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People
are claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're
mostly fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic
applications and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides
but hacky editors which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse works fine on windows. KDevelop and Anjuta are no better than
an editor with project organizer and debugger. Most of good IDEs are
cross-platform, but windows just gives you more choices.
Seconded. Eclipse is eons above KDevelop and Anjuta - both are half
arsed glorified editors with too much politcal agenda. I mean ffs,if
you're a gnome programmer using KDevelop is almost certainly NOT
something you want to use - it uses the KDE toolkits and its UI is
totally at odds with what the Gnome guys are trying to achieve.
Ridiculous fragmentation once more. Unfortunately the Linux eclipse
suffers from one problem (apart from being another overweight resource
hungry java pile of bloatware) - most Debian/Ubuntu installations I
have dealt with have a hosed Java from the standard repositories and
people need to manually install the Sun JRE/JDK.
Well I agree with your first half, eclipse is eons ahead of KDevelop
and Anjuta and I'd rather not try to develop just about anything in
KDevelop. And I actually have a commercial Qt license....
Now, the last part about Java is just complete BS.
apt-get install sun-java6-jre sun-java6-plugin
Done.
Or you can just choose it from synaptic if you prefer.
See Hadron, that isn't that difficult now is it?
If it works Stephen. Why do you think I would make this up.
Now, I will grant you that my experiences were more Debian orientated
but rather than us do the usual cat fight I will take your word for it
that it "just works" in Ubuntu. I wont even bother going to google to
try to prove you wrong.
Go google it. "Prove me wrong"....I only frigging did it yesterday on a
brand new install and Eclipse is running flawlessly....
It's part of my setup script I've run on over a dozen of installations
now and it's worked every time.
But please, go prove me wrong with a google link and I suppose I'll just
take all my personal experience and throw it out the window over your
superior googling wisdom.
Well, I must admit I didn't mean anything there to doubt you. All I can
TELL you is that a lot of people have issues with Java in Linux. I had
tons of trouble in Debian and I thought Ubuntu - I really was not
questioning that the Ubuntu worked for you. Here see this for getting
sun Java to work with Debian



Until I found this nothing worked properly.
--
< asuffield> a workstation is anything you can stick on somebodies desk
and con them into using
-- in #debian-devel
Linonut
2008-03-25 18:06:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez ;)),
it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People are
claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're mostly
fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic applications
and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides but hacky editors
which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse works fine on windows. KDevelop and Anjuta are no better than
an editor with project organizer and debugger. Most of good IDEs are
cross-platform, but windows just gives you more choices.
I don't believe you've used KDevelop very much, then.

I will say that the debugging on Windows is decent. In fact, the WinDBG
debugger is even better than the Visual Studio (2002) debugger. I mean,
I'm sure they share the same engine, but WinDBG exposes a lot more
functionality. It rivals GDB in some ways.

I personally find that all IDEs get in the way most of the time; they
try to do too much, and try to do it with GUI items.
--
Until we're educating every kid in a fantastic way, until every inner city
is cleaned up, there is no shortage of things to do.
-- Bill Gates
The Ghost In The Machine
2008-03-25 19:31:48 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Linonut
<***@bollsouth.nut>
wrote
on Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:17:23 -0400
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez ;)),
it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People are
claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're mostly
fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic applications
and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides but hacky editors
which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse? KDevelop? Even Anjuta?
Eclipse is not Linux-centric. KDevelop is designed primarily
for Unix systems but there might be a variant of KDE/QT running
around for Windows.

Not familiar enough with Anjuta to say what it does. I'm
emerging it now. ;-)
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Besides, you can get all of the free softwares on windows as well,
such as openoffice, apache, mplayer (save you a lot of WMP trouble!),
firefox, etc. Since windows is usually pre-installed, it just
wouldn't save you any cent to use linux.
Well, most people seem quite willing to put up with malware and with
being nickel-and-dimed to death to fight malware and to be able to do
stuff (office, pix, audio/video) with their Windows computers.
That's because Windows is "standard". (Darned good sales job.)
Post by Linonut
Personally, I greatly prefer Linux because you can try stuff out without
making much of an investment (in time /or/ money). Another reason I
prefer Linux is I can avoid many problems and hassles that occur to the
Windows users on our networks. I can install various forms of Linux on
as many systems as I want to, and can bring old hardware back into
service, even if only as a terminal for a Windows system.
I can totally change the GUI and find the style of interface I like
best. Currently, that is the fluxbox/openbox style of GUI. No desktop
icons, no frickin' Start button. I like it.
You may not like it, though, and that's cool. Heck, my wife and
daughter still prefer Windows, even though their desktops have more
corporate logos on them than Jeff Gordon's jumpsuit.
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
If your CPU can't stand the heat, get another fan.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Linonut
2008-03-25 23:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Linonut
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez ;)),
it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People are
claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're mostly
fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic applications
and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides but hacky editors
which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse? KDevelop? Even Anjuta?
Eclipse is not Linux-centric.
Obviously. But Aquilus Deus is claiming that there are only "hacky"
tools on Linux.

He's full of it. He's essentially claiming that the only good IDE is a
Microsoft IDE.

And he's equating the two environment if you don't mind "pirating"
paid-for software. Even that is wrong.

His perspective has some merit from the vantage of a plain user, but not
from the vantage of someone who values, say, POSIX standards.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
KDevelop is designed primarily for Unix systems but there might be a
variant of KDE/QT running around for Windows.
Not yet, as far as I know.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Not familiar enough with Anjuta to say what it does. I'm
emerging it now. ;-)
I don't bother with that stuff. Some console windows, automake, and vi
are all I need.
--
I really had a lot of dreams when I was a kid, and I think a great deal of
that grew out of the fact that I had a chance to read a lot.
-- Bill Gates
AqD
2008-03-26 01:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Linonut
Post by AqD
Actually, I have migrated back to windows after learning and using
linux for many years. IMHO if you don't care about money (warez ;)),
it's not worth the trouble to switch to linux at all. People are
claiming they can do this and that on linux, but they're mostly
fraking geeks who never touch anything beyond the basic applications
and development tools! (and that tools are NOT ides but hacky editors
which take months to learn!)
Dude, have you never tried Eclipse?  KDevelop?  Even Anjuta?
Eclipse is not Linux-centric.
Obviously.  But Aquilus Deus is claiming that there are only "hacky"
tools on Linux.
He's full of it.  He's essentially claiming that the only good IDE is a
Microsoft IDE.
The "hacky" tools, like vim or emacs, are what linux people use most.
The other good ones are cross-platform IDEs.

M$'s isn't good but needed for many developers, whether they like it
or not. The fact is nobody is forced to use the hacky tools, like
they're forced to use VS.NET.
And he's equating the two environment if you don't mind "pirating"
paid-for software.  Even that is wrong.
It's not about right or wrong. People make a choice for benefit, and
rightness is sometimes ignored.
His perspective has some merit from the vantage of a plain user, but not
from the vantage of someone who values, say, POSIX standards.
Okay, so let's say all those who value POSIX standards mirgrate to
linux, and so what? They're not the majority of PC users.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
KDevelop is designed primarily for Unix systems but there might be a
variant of KDE/QT running around for Windows.
Not yet, as far as I know.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Not familiar enough with Anjuta to say what it does.  I'm
emerging it now. ;-)
I don't bother with that stuff.  Some console windows, automake, and vi
are all I need.
And you think that's IDE? ;)

Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?

In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
(it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think

SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
code.

X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.


They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
linux - because they're not free.
Linonut
2008-03-26 02:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?
Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
Post by AqD
In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
(it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
code.
X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
linux - because they're not free.
That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed. And, if you
start to depend on it, then you are not so flexible when you go to a
different work environment. And that's ignoring the money.

I paid over $200, twice, for CodeWright. If I had known about vim,
I could have saved myself a lot of money.

Tools like cscope, etags, flawfinder, and many others will help you,
and give you much of the same functionality as the tools above,
though you have to activate them manually. I suspect Emacs has a lot of
tools that do some of the stuff you mention above. In vim, you can
issue a make while you are editing, anytime you're curious, and have vim
step through each error.

My method of building code is to comment early, and build early, and
then comment and build continuously. There's no substitute for knowing
what you are doing, being alert, and write the destruct code at the same
time as the construction code.

And keeping your design small and API concise.

Here's an object lesson from a Windows master:

http://www.charlespetzold.com/etc/DoesVisualStudioRotTheMind.html

But I'm an old-school guy. What do I know? I started out using EDLIN
and DEBUG on MASM source-code files that were up to 1 Mb in size.
On PCs that were lucky to have the full 640K of RAM. I would have
dropped dead from envy if I had known about the tools that were available
to the UNIX programmer back in 1985. (I did have a nice vi for the PC,
but the company wouldn't allow me to use it.)
--
Microsoft is not about greed. It's about innovation and fairness.
-- Bill Gates
Hadron
2008-03-26 06:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?
Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
Post by AqD
In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
(it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
code.
X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
linux - because they're not free.
That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed.
And here we see more bullshit from Liarnut.

Speed?

WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
benefits it brings.

He is totally clueless as usual.
The Ghost In The Machine
2008-03-26 14:00:38 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Hadron
<***@googlemail.com>
wrote
on Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:38:25 +0100
Post by Hadron
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?
Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
Post by AqD
In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
(it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
code.
X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
linux - because they're not free.
That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed.
And here we see more bullshit from Liarnut.
Speed?
WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
benefits it brings.
He is totally clueless as usual.
Clock speeds.

1970: 8 bit, not sure, probably 500 kHz
1980: 8 bit, 4.77 MHz
1985: 8 bit, 33 MHz
1990: 16 bit 50-66 Mhz
1995: 32 bit 200 MHz
2000: 32 bit 733-800 MHz
2005: 64 bit 2 GHz

from
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/licweb/chiphist.htm
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
Linux. Because it's not the desktop that's
important, it's the ability to DO something
with it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Jim Richardson
2008-03-26 19:50:57 UTC
Permalink
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Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:38:25 +0100,
Post by Hadron
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?
Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
Post by AqD
In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
(it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
code.
X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
linux - because they're not free.
That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed.
And here we see more bullshit from Liarnut.
Speed?
WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
benefits it brings.
An interesting assertion. Hadron claims that "a few ms" delay when
typing won't affect productivitiy.
Post by Hadron
He is totally clueless as usual.
and again, Hadron manages to strain the irony meter.

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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Payday came and with it beer.
-- Rudyard Kipling
Dr.Hal0nf1r£$
2008-03-27 01:54:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Richardson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:38:25 +0100,
Post by Hadron
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?
Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
Post by AqD
In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++
auto-completion (it even takes macros into account), and the
project orgenizer can let you edit complex dependencies in make,
though not automake'ed I think
SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or
move a method in the whole project, without worrying about other
related code.
X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also
missing method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're
typing. So before you ever make/compile you could already fix most
errors.
They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known
to most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who
use linux - because they're not free.
That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed.
And here we see more bullshit from Liarnut.
Speed?
WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted
"as he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to
the benefits it brings.
An interesting assertion. Hadron claims that "a few ms" delay when
typing won't affect productivitiy.
Post by Hadron
He is totally clueless as usual.
and again, Hadron manages to strain the irony meter.
If they made the irony meter titaneumy instead it wouldn't be under so much
strain.
AqD
2008-03-27 13:01:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Richardson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Post by Hadron
WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
benefits it brings.
An interesting assertion. Hadron claims that "a few ms" delay when
typing won't affect productivitiy.
Those big java IDEs don't run well on old computers. But if you can
pay for those expensive softwares, can't you pay for a new PC?

BTW it's not a few ms, the whole checking process (or the auto
building/make in eclipse) is quiet CPU intensive; although it's done
in background, one can still feel that slowness on an old pc like mine
(sempron 2.4g). But the productivity it brings worths everything - and
those features are what most free IDEs/editors don't have - or cannot
have unless you really have a lot of developers to put into that part .
Hadron
2008-03-27 14:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
Post by Jim Richardson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Post by Hadron
WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
benefits it brings.
An interesting assertion. Hadron claims that "a few ms" delay when
typing won't affect productivitiy.
It won't. Did you never hear of multitasking/threading? Do you REALLY
think that a few ms of CPU time used when typing is going to have any
adverse affect? do you? YO do know it wont hold up your typing dont you?
And a few ms used up to calculate things like class trees etc as you
type is nothing from the otherwise wasted bandwidth?

Dear me Jim. You seem to get more clueless with every attempt to support
a supposed "advocate".

These IDEs are good- and its why people use them.

Me? I don't like big heavy IDEs as a general rule and tend to use Emacs -
but it sure ain't for the beginner. Actually, I will rephrase that : I
see it as a challenge to keep using Emacs for these things.
Post by AqD
Those big java IDEs don't run well on old computers. But if you can
pay for those expensive softwares, can't you pay for a new PC?
And, when they're loaded they're ok.
Post by AqD
BTW it's not a few ms, the whole checking process (or the auto
Its a few ms on a fast CPU - but lets not quibble. Its done in the bg
most of the time and on a decent PC which any developer SHOULD have then
the cost/benefit analysis ensures that these features are very welcome.
Post by AqD
building/make in eclipse) is quiet CPU intensive; although it's done
in background, one can still feel that slowness on an old pc like mine
(sempron 2.4g). But the productivity it brings worths everything - and
Yes!
Post by AqD
those features are what most free IDEs/editors don't have - or cannot
have unless you really have a lot of developers to put into that part .
--
<dark> Looks like the channel is back to normal :)
<jim> You mean it's not scrolling faster than anyone can read? :)
-- Seen on #Debian after the release of Debian 2.0
Jim Richardson
2008-03-27 17:13:34 UTC
Permalink
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Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:47:07 +0100,
Post by Hadron
Post by AqD
Post by Jim Richardson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Post by Hadron
WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
benefits it brings.
An interesting assertion. Hadron claims that "a few ms" delay when
typing won't affect productivitiy.
It won't. Did you never hear of multitasking/threading? Do you REALLY
think that a few ms of CPU time used when typing is going to have any
we are talking about a few ms of lag in kb responce, which is *very*
noticable.
Post by Hadron
adverse affect? do you? YO do know it wont hold up your typing dont you?
And a few ms used up to calculate things like class trees etc as you
type is nothing from the otherwise wasted bandwidth?
it slows down typing responce.
Post by Hadron
Dear me Jim. You seem to get more clueless with every attempt to support
a supposed "advocate".
These IDEs are good- and its why people use them.
Me? I don't like big heavy IDEs as a general rule and tend to use Emacs -
but it sure ain't for the beginner. Actually, I will rephrase that : I
see it as a challenge to keep using Emacs for these things.
Post by AqD
Those big java IDEs don't run well on old computers. But if you can
pay for those expensive softwares, can't you pay for a new PC?
And, when they're loaded they're ok.
Post by AqD
BTW it's not a few ms, the whole checking process (or the auto
Its a few ms on a fast CPU - but lets not quibble. Its done in the bg
most of the time and on a decent PC which any developer SHOULD have then
the cost/benefit analysis ensures that these features are very welcome.
Post by AqD
building/make in eclipse) is quiet CPU intensive; although it's done
in background, one can still feel that slowness on an old pc like mine
(sempron 2.4g). But the productivity it brings worths everything - and
Yes!
Post by AqD
those features are what most free IDEs/editors don't have - or cannot
have unless you really have a lot of developers to put into that part .
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"We live in the interface between radioactive molten rock and hard
vacuum and we worry about safety."
-- A friend of Steve Vanevender
AqD
2008-03-28 00:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Richardson
we are talking about a few ms of lag in kb responce, which is *very*
noticable.
it slows down typing responce.
Just get a better PC.
Hadron
2008-03-28 00:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
Post by Jim Richardson
we are talking about a few ms of lag in kb responce, which is *very*
noticable.
it slows down typing responce.
Just get a better PC.
Jim is talking nonsense or he bought some garbage with no buffer.
Ezekiel
2008-03-27 14:55:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Richardson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:38:25 +0100,
Post by Hadron
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?
Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
Post by AqD
In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
(it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
code.
X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
linux - because they're not free.
That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed.
And here we see more bullshit from Liarnut.
Speed?
WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
benefits it brings.
An interesting assertion. Hadron claims that "a few ms" delay when
typing won't affect productivitiy.
Are you talking about "a few ms" _total_ delay or "a few ms" delay between
each keystroke. Even on hardware from the 1990's the delay per keystroke was
in the microseconds. On modern hardware it's in the very, very, very low
microseconds per keystroke.
Post by Jim Richardson
Post by Hadron
He is totally clueless as usual.
and again, Hadron manages to strain the irony meter.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Payday came and with it beer.
-- Rudyard Kipling
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Hadron
2008-03-27 15:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ezekiel
Post by Jim Richardson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:38:25 +0100,
Post by Hadron
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?
Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
Post by AqD
In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
(it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
code.
X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
linux - because they're not free.
That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed.
And here we see more bullshit from Liarnut.
Speed?
WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
benefits it brings.
An interesting assertion. Hadron claims that "a few ms" delay when
typing won't affect productivitiy.
Are you talking about "a few ms" _total_ delay or "a few ms" delay between
each keystroke. Even on hardware from the 1990's the delay per keystroke was
in the microseconds. On modern hardware it's in the very, very, very low
microseconds per keystroke.
See my other post. I am amazed this needs explaining. Jim Richardson has
done a Liarnut and gone to the dark side. He clearly has zero clue
anymore about how anything works. I wouldn't mind but this isn't even a
MS v Linux or closed source v open source issue - its about big
lumbering IDEs and the good they can bring.
Jim Richardson
2008-03-27 17:14:47 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:08:48 +0100,
Post by Hadron
Post by Ezekiel
Post by Jim Richardson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:38:25 +0100,
Post by Hadron
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?
Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
Post by AqD
In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
(it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
code.
X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
linux - because they're not free.
That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed.
And here we see more bullshit from Liarnut.
Speed?
WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
benefits it brings.
An interesting assertion. Hadron claims that "a few ms" delay when
typing won't affect productivitiy.
Are you talking about "a few ms" _total_ delay or "a few ms" delay between
each keystroke. Even on hardware from the 1990's the delay per keystroke was
in the microseconds. On modern hardware it's in the very, very, very low
microseconds per keystroke.
See my other post. I am amazed this needs explaining. Jim Richardson has
done a Liarnut and gone to the dark side. He clearly has zero clue
anymore about how anything works. I wouldn't mind but this isn't even a
MS v Linux or closed source v open source issue - its about big
lumbering IDEs and the good they can bring.
Hadron is back to insults, rather than discussing things. Figures.


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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
The real fun of living wisely is that you get to feel smug about it
-- Hobbes
The Ghost In The Machine
2008-03-27 18:39:36 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Jim Richardson
<***@eskimo.com>
wrote
on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:14:47 -0700
Post by Jim Richardson
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:08:48 +0100,
Post by Hadron
Post by Ezekiel
Post by Jim Richardson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:38:25 +0100,
Post by Hadron
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?
Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
Post by AqD
In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
(it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
code.
X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
linux - because they're not free.
That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed.
And here we see more bullshit from Liarnut.
Speed?
WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
benefits it brings.
An interesting assertion. Hadron claims that "a few ms" delay when
typing won't affect productivitiy.
Are you talking about "a few ms" _total_ delay or "a few ms" delay between
each keystroke. Even on hardware from the 1990's the delay per keystroke was
in the microseconds. On modern hardware it's in the very, very, very low
microseconds per keystroke.
See my other post. I am amazed this needs explaining. Jim Richardson has
done a Liarnut and gone to the dark side. He clearly has zero clue
anymore about how anything works. I wouldn't mind but this isn't even a
MS v Linux or closed source v open source issue - its about big
lumbering IDEs and the good they can bring.
Hadron is back to insults, rather than discussing things. Figures.
I have seen Word lagging if the machine starts paging.
However, Word is only partly to blame for that. ;-)
It's very noticeable when it happens.

To be fair, one can easily cause Linux to slow down as
well, by overloading RAM; the resulting lag in various
editors runs from annoying to useless.
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #992381111:
while(bit&BITMASK) ;
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Hadron
2008-03-27 19:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Jim Richardson
on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:14:47 -0700
Post by Jim Richardson
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:08:48 +0100,
Post by Hadron
Post by Ezekiel
Post by Jim Richardson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:38:25 +0100,
Post by Hadron
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?
Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
Post by AqD
In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
(it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
code.
X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
linux - because they're not free.
That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed.
And here we see more bullshit from Liarnut.
Speed?
WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
benefits it brings.
An interesting assertion. Hadron claims that "a few ms" delay when
typing won't affect productivitiy.
Are you talking about "a few ms" _total_ delay or "a few ms" delay between
each keystroke. Even on hardware from the 1990's the delay per keystroke was
in the microseconds. On modern hardware it's in the very, very, very low
microseconds per keystroke.
See my other post. I am amazed this needs explaining. Jim Richardson has
done a Liarnut and gone to the dark side. He clearly has zero clue
anymore about how anything works. I wouldn't mind but this isn't even a
MS v Linux or closed source v open source issue - its about big
lumbering IDEs and the good they can bring.
Hadron is back to insults, rather than discussing things. Figures.
Where were the insults? I am pointing out that you are totally wrong. As
you tried, incorrectly, to do to me. You tried to move the goalposts
too. Fail.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
I have seen Word lagging if the machine starts paging.
Big deal. It happens. OO does it too under LInux. All apps do it if
paging/swapping starts to occur.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
However, Word is only partly to blame for that. ;-)
It's very noticeable when it happens.
To be fair, one can easily cause Linux to slow down as
well, by overloading RAM; the resulting lag in various
editors runs from annoying to useless.
Buy some more RAM. Works for me here in emacs under Debian.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
--
while(bit&BITMASK) ;
--
XP can't be selling well, or we'd have the wintrolls crowing about it all
over the advocacy newsgroups.
comp.os.linux.advocacy - where they put the lunacy in advocacy
Moshe Goldfarb
2008-03-26 15:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
I paid over $200, twice, for CodeWright. If I had known about vim,
I could have saved myself a lot of money.
Twice...
You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you Linonut?
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Ezekiel
2008-03-26 16:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?
Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
Post by AqD
In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
(it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
code.
X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
linux - because they're not free.
That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed.
What speed? Are you saying that you can type faster than a GUI can accept
input?
Post by Linonut
And, if you
start to depend on it, then you are not so flexible when you go to a
different work environment.
Valid point. Something like 'makefiles' and 'emacs/vi' are pretty much the
lowest common denominator.
Post by Linonut
And that's ignoring the money.
My employer pays for the development tools I use. Doesn't yours?
Post by Linonut
I paid over $200, twice, for CodeWright. If I had known about vim,
I could have saved myself a lot of money.
Isn't that a GUI based app? Does it run on all platforms? (Just asking, I
don't use it.)
Post by Linonut
Tools like cscope, etags, flawfinder, and many others will help you,
and give you much of the same functionality as the tools above,
though you have to activate them manually. I suspect Emacs has a lot of
tools that do some of the stuff you mention above. In vim, you can
issue a make while you are editing, anytime you're curious, and have vim
step through each error.
My method of building code is to comment early, and build early, and
then comment and build continuously. There's no substitute for knowing
what you are doing, being alert, and write the destruct code at the same
time as the construction code.
That programming style is orthoganal to whether you do it in a GUI or CLI
based development environment.
Post by Linonut
And keeping your design small and API concise.
Applies to GUI, CLI and pretty much any language. It's the KISS principal.
Post by Linonut
http://www.charlespetzold.com/etc/DoesVisualStudioRotTheMind.html
A long but decent read. As Chuck says - "Of course, I could always just turn
it off." which is what people who don't like these features should do. But
these same features shouldn't be denied to people who do like them.
Post by Linonut
But I'm an old-school guy. What do I know? I started out using EDLIN
and DEBUG on MASM source-code files that were up to 1 Mb in size.
On PCs that were lucky to have the full 640K of RAM. I would have
dropped dead from envy if I had known about the tools that were available
to the UNIX programmer back in 1985. (I did have a nice vi for the PC,
but the company wouldn't allow me to use it.)
Why would anyone ever use EDLIN? There were clearly much, much better
editors available at that time.
Post by Linonut
--
Microsoft is not about greed. It's about innovation and fairness.
-- Bill Gates
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
AqD
2008-03-26 01:39:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Well, most people seem quite willing to put up with malware and with
being nickel-and-dimed to death to fight malware and to be able to do
stuff (office, pix, audio/video) with their Windows computers.
Heh now you're making a FUD. The whole malware and virus issues are
only caused by the stupidity of common PC users. Anyone who have at
least some sense of computer security wouldn't have that kind of
problems at all, that includes many of you linux users.

I have been using windows for around 1 year: I use no anti-virus
software, no firewall (my router is the firewall). I don't use IE
except to test webpages, and I don't open weird mail attachments like
most of the idiots would do. No virus or anything so far.
Linonut
2008-03-26 02:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
Post by Linonut
Well, most people seem quite willing to put up with malware and with
being nickel-and-dimed to death to fight malware and to be able to do
stuff (office, pix, audio/video) with their Windows computers.
Heh now you're making a FUD. The whole malware and virus issues are
only caused by the stupidity of common PC users. Anyone who have at
least some sense of computer security wouldn't have that kind of
problems at all, that includes many of you linux users.
I have been using windows for around 1 year: I use no anti-virus
software, no firewall (my router is the firewall). I don't use IE
except to test webpages, and I don't open weird mail attachments like
most of the idiots would do. No virus or anything so far.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of PC users depend on others to make
sure their systems are maintained. Almost nobody gets any formal
training in Windows maintenance, and Windows needs at least as much
maintenance as Linux, and probably more.

Note that almost anyone reading these newsgroups is a /far more
advanced/ Windows user than the majority of consumers who just take what
the manufacturer installs on the machine.
--
Like almost everyone who uses e-mail, I receive a ton of spam every day.
Much of it offers to help me get out of debt or get rich quick. It would be
funny if it weren't so exciting.
-- Bill Gates
AqD
2008-03-26 13:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
I have been using windows for around 1 year: I use no anti-virus
software, no firewall (my router is the firewall). I don't use IE
except to test webpages, and I don't open weird mail attachments like
most of the idiots would do. No virus or anything so far.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of PC users depend on others to make
sure their systems are maintained. Almost nobody gets any formal
training in Windows maintenance, and Windows needs at least as much
maintenance as Linux, and probably more.
True, but at least windows is not as insecure and buggy as many linux
advocates claimed. And with windows you have much more choices of
softwares, because it's the major OS, and it's usually preinstalled on
new PCs, and many developers are making free or non-free applications
for it.

It's not that windows is technically better than linux, or vice versa
- but that people don't really get enough benefit to compensate for
all the troubles if they switch the OS, rather than an office suite or
a web browser.
Linonut
2008-03-26 16:41:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
Post by Linonut
Post by AqD
I have been using windows for around 1 year: I use no anti-virus
software, no firewall (my router is the firewall). I don't use IE
except to test webpages, and I don't open weird mail attachments like
most of the idiots would do. No virus or anything so far.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of PC users depend on others to make
sure their systems are maintained. Almost nobody gets any formal
training in Windows maintenance, and Windows needs at least as much
maintenance as Linux, and probably more.
True, but at least windows is not as insecure and buggy as many linux
advocates claimed.
True. It is /more/ insecure than we claim:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2007/11/feds_put_more_botmasters_phish.html

http://www.govtech.com/gt/185085?topic=117671

And Vista?

http://gizmodo.com/342920/holy-crap-did-bill-gates-just-say-windows-sucks

Remember to "suit up" before plugging in:

Loading Image...
Post by AqD
And with windows you have much more choices of
softwares, because it's the major OS, and it's usually preinstalled on
new PCs, and many developers are making free or non-free applications
for it.
Very true. At least for XP. Vista's a bit more iffy, from what I hear.
Post by AqD
It's not that windows is technically better than linux, or vice versa
- but that people don't really get enough benefit to compensate for
all the troubles if they switch the OS, rather than an office suite or
a web browser.
Partly true. Also partly true is that people simply don't /know/ the
benefits (especially in security) they'll get from running Linux. And,
of course, many surely don't care about the "freedom" benefits. They're
users.

Myself? Once I tried Linux, I simply loved it, and have gradually grown
to dislike Windows by comparison. Your mileage will vary.

Anyway, thanks for the honest dialogue.
--
If you can't make it good, at least make it look good.
-- Bill Gates
JD
2008-03-26 16:12:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by AqD
Post by Linonut
Well, most people seem quite willing to put up with malware and with
being nickel-and-dimed to death to fight malware and to be able to do
stuff (office, pix, audio/video) with their Windows computers.
Heh now you're making a FUD. The whole malware and virus issues are
only caused by the stupidity of common PC users. Anyone who have at
least some sense of computer security wouldn't have that kind of
problems at all, that includes many of you linux users.
I have been using windows for around 1 year: I use no anti-virus
software, no firewall (my router is the firewall). I don't use IE
except to test webpages, and I don't open weird mail attachments like
most of the idiots would do. No virus or anything so far.
WTH is a FUD?


$$$$$$$$$$$
Yours truly, Johnny Dollar!
Tim Slattery
2008-03-26 20:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by JD
WTH is a FUD?
FUD = Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt
Post by JD
Yours truly, Johnny Dollar!
ROTFL!!
--
Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
***@bls.gov
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt
Bob F.
2008-03-26 20:19:59 UTC
Permalink
IBM has been identified as using FUD in the early computer days to badmouth
Amdahl and other computer competitors, stating that connecting any of their
devices to "our" systems would result in failure an loss of your investment.
They also proclaimed that if you supported IBM you would always have a job.
--
Regards, BobF.
Post by Tim Slattery
Post by JD
WTH is a FUD?
FUD = Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt
Post by JD
Yours truly, Johnny Dollar!
ROTFL!!
--
Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt
relic
2008-03-26 22:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob F.
IBM has been identified as using FUD in the early computer days to
badmouth Amdahl and other computer competitors, stating that
connecting any of their devices to "our" systems would result in
failure an loss of your investment. They also proclaimed that if you
supported IBM you would always have a job.
_Most_ of the major companys operate today under a Consent Decree for those
kind of practices. IBM is one of many that do.
Post by Bob F.
Post by Tim Slattery
Post by JD
WTH is a FUD?
FUD = Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt
Post by JD
Yours truly, Johnny Dollar!
ROTFL!!
--
Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt
Linonut
2008-03-26 21:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Slattery
--
Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
Does the above mean you're a shell expert?

What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or zoidberg?
Post by Tim Slattery
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt
--
Probably the most dangerous and powerful industrialist of our age.
-- Scott McNealy, of Sun Microsystems
chrisv
2008-03-26 22:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by Tim Slattery
--
Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
Does the above mean you're a shell expert?
What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or
zoidberg?
Clam.
Moshe Goldfarb
2008-03-27 02:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by Tim Slattery
--
Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
Does the above mean you're a shell expert?
What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or zoidberg?
Clam.
Good choice.......
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Tim Slattery
2008-03-27 12:47:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
Does the above mean you're a shell expert?
It means that MS changes the MVP categories faster than I can keep up!
Post by Linonut
What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or zoidberg?
Kornshell, when I use Unix.
--
Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
***@bls.gov
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt
Linonut
2008-03-27 13:26:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Slattery
Post by Linonut
Post by Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
Does the above mean you're a shell expert?
It means that MS changes the MVP categories faster than I can keep up!
Post by Linonut
What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or zoidberg?
Kornshell, when I use Unix.
I've gotten used to bash, but I really need to discipline myself to
write bare-bones sh scripts.
--
The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste, they have
absolutely no taste, and what that means is -- I don't mean that in a small
way I mean that in a big way -- in the sense that they they don't think of
original ideas and they don't bring much culture into their product.
-- Steve Jobs as quoted in the PBS documentary Triumph of the Nerds (1996)
Bobby McN.
2008-03-27 13:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by Tim Slattery
Post by Linonut
Post by Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
Does the above mean you're a shell expert?
It means that MS changes the MVP categories faster than I can keep up!
Post by Linonut
What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or zoidberg?
Kornshell, when I use Unix.
I've gotten used to bash, but I really need to discipline myself to
write bare-bones sh scripts.
I use bash with Cygwin and MSYS. Great shell.
Hadron
2008-03-27 14:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by Tim Slattery
Post by Linonut
Post by Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
Does the above mean you're a shell expert?
It means that MS changes the MVP categories faster than I can keep up!
Post by Linonut
What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or zoidberg?
Kornshell, when I use Unix.
I've gotten used to bash, but I really need to discipline myself to
write bare-bones sh scripts.
Come one then Liarnut - tell us why. Or are you just bandying words
around to show off again?
chrisv
2008-03-27 13:11:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by Tim Slattery
--
Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
Does the above mean you're a shell expert?
What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or zoidberg?
Powers~1
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